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help calibrating Sony 65 projector with LightSpace

 
 
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Author FreMo
ZRO
Male
#1 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 10:12 
I have a Sony 65ES projector (with <1000 h lamp life) and a Lumagen Radiance.
I'm struggling with the calibration and 3D LUT generation. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong since I succeeded to calibrate my TV with the same procedure.

I have first uploaded a null cube in the Radiance.
I use the I1DisplayPro OEM probe. In the Setup Options, I set Integration Time to 1.5 s and AIO Sync Mode. I used the Calibration Settings "Projector" and activated "Average Low Light Measurements" tick box.
- I don't understand the difference between Projector and Generic CMF?

I have set the best possible settings of the projector. Using the white calibration patch I set the colour temperature the best I could, using RGB gains (-30 Blue and +30 Red; I know the rule of thumb of only decreasing the gain values, but RGB balance exhibited a huge excess of the blue component so I also increased the Red gain).

I have made a pre characterisation using a 11^3 cube.
- Despite the colour gamut is narrow, the report exhibits a 98% coverage, is this normal?
- Should I enable the Colour Sub-Space?

I targeted a Rec709 space with a 2.2 Gamma.
I converted this Colour Space using the Fit Space algorithm.
- I see no difference in both the 3D cube and 1D graph using the Disable Gamut Mapping option, is this normal?

Finally, I uploaded the 3D + 1D LUT but the image looks green. This is confirmed by the RGB Balance measurements on the post characterisation Profile (Primary only).

Thank you for your help.

2020 11 01 Sony 65 Character.pdf Attached file:
Pre characterisation

 
2020 11 01 Sony 65 Fit Space.pdf Attached file:
Post profile

 

Author Steve

INF
Male
#2 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 11:37 | Edited by: Steve 
With the reports graphs you only have grey scale/primary/secondary points showing, so it is impossible to judge what is really going on.
(And that is why the 'Gamut Coverage' value appears 'wrong' - when it is not.)

But, the projector pre-cal is appalling.
Look at the RGB Separation, gamma, and RGB Balance...
Regardless of the probe settings, they show the projector colour is awful.

Something looks to be very wrong with the pre-setup.

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author jfinnie
ZRO
#3 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 12:39 
FreMo
Re: Projector vs generic CMF - if you don't have a spectro to match to, projector is probably a reasonable match for the spectrum of a UHP lamp based projector like your Sony. If you do have a spectro, you'd be best using Generic CMF as the basis for a spectro probe matching.

Re: your profile and precal issues; maybe you can upload the actual profiles, it's hard to see what is going on from a 2D CIE diagram. It looks pretty tragic though pre-cal.

The pre-cal gamut does look appallingly small. I know some Sony units have gamut shrink with old age from the panel degrading, but I'm shocked if it is that bad.
I don't know much about Sony PJ cal, as most of my experience is with JVC units, so the following is generic about how I'd approach the issue you see.

I guess another possibility is you might have configured some gamut remapping in the Lumagen somehow which is shrinking your gamut. Maybe you could provide details of how you have your Lumagen setup.

I'd suggest a factory reset on your PJ and a small cube profile of each of the various modes in the display to see what the gamut really looks like. Maybe something like a 5^3 cube of each mode which will let you see what is happening in 3D. Use this to work out which mode has the best gamut size and RGB separation, which would likely be the mode with the most chance of being a good candidate for a 3DLUT.

For now, work on getting the PJ pre-cal to be in as good a raw state as possible. This doesn't mean matching it to D65, REC709 etc, it means trying to get it to be as close to a "linear" display as possible. It's possible what you're doing with the RGB gains, for instance, is screwing the colour management in the Sony PJ, so I'd suggest leaving them alone until you understand the display a bit more. You can always let the LUT sort out the white point later (though there are some issues with white going off-white above 235 when used with the Radiance, as it only has LUT control points in the video legal 16-235 range).

You shouldn't need to go anywhere near subspaces etc yet. Those are all advanced options for when you really know what you're doing and trying to achieve...

Anyway, that's where I'd start. Post some more info including your profiles when you've given it a go.

Author FreMo
ZRO
Male
#4 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 13:11 | Edited by: FreMo 
Thank you for your responses.

The projector isn't used were often and the bulb has less than 1000h. The colours are not great anymore, that is why I try to re calibrate the projector.
With the factory default settings (D65 colour temperature, Rec709 color Space and 2.6 Gamma (it provides only 1.839 on the measurements) ), the blue component is very high.

What file format should I use to show you the 3D measurements?

I feel that the projector is no more able to be calibrated, should I contact Sony support?

Sony 65 Pre Characterization.pdf Attached file:
Sony 65 Pre Characterization.pdf

 

Author FreMo
ZRO
Male
#5 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 13:25 | Edited by: FreMo 
I also attach the previous pre and post measurements when the projector was new and I felt I "succeeded" to preform the calibration of the projector.










Author Steve

INF
Male
#6 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 13:27 | Edited by: Steve 
The report is again just the Grey Scale/Primary/Secondary colours.
Please enable 'Others' too, before making the reports.
But the profile show the projector is appalling... really, really appalling.
(The older profiles show it was a lot better originally.)

And also please attached the actual profile.
But, I do not thi9ng the projector can be calibrated any more.
It is just too 'bad' pre calibration now.

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author FreMo
ZRO
Male
#7 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 13:50 | Edited by: FreMo 
Dear Steve,
Thank you for your help and patience.
Sorry but I don't understand "Please enable 'Others' too, before making the reports." since all the boxes are ticked including 'Others' when generating the report (see capture).

I don't know what the actual profile is: is it the .bcs file?



Sony 65 Pre Characterization.zip Attached file:
Sony 65 Pre Characterization.zip

 

Author FreMo
ZRO
Male
#8 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 13:55 | Edited by: FreMo 
I think I get it?

Sony 65 Pre Characterization.pdf Attached file:
Sony 65 Pre Characterization.pdf

 

Author jfinnie
ZRO
#9 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 13:59 
FreMo
You should be able to upload the *.bcs file which is the actual measurement profile (contains all measured points). You can export it from from "manage colour spaces" window, or you can just find where all the profiles are stored and grab it out of there (I can't remember the exact directory where the files end up). Then anyone interested can have a look at what appears to be going on in 3D.

If after a factory reset it is really the case that all the modes have such ridiculous shrunken gamut, I would be talking to Sony. I don't know how much luck you will have after almost 5 years. However I'm not totally convinced yet. You previously had good RGB separation, and don't now. If the panels have mutated you'd still expect the RGB separation to be good (the R+G+B, whatever they were, would equal the W) if you stay away from the projector CMS controls (RGB etc). Though I guess if the spectra has changed it might not.

Try doing as suggested; factory reset the projector, make no changes to any menu items, make sure you definitely have null LUT uploaded for 1D and 3DLUT in the Radiance, and then make some small 3D cube profiles of the modes, see what they look like.

Dumb question - you haven't got a bad probe matching loaded in your meter settings? I imagine that could have some bad results.

If after having done that the gamut really is that small in all modes I'd consider it junk and in need of repair or replacement.

Author FreMo
ZRO
Male
#10 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 14:48 
Thank you for the help.
The .bcs file was previously attached in the .zip file since this format is not allowed to be attached in the post.
I will try to contact Sony for a repair so, but I doubt for the agreement.

Author jfinnie
ZRO
#11 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 15:11 
Our messages must have crossed over. But I'm sure this profile will be terrible looking, I will look later.
Best try with the factory reset and see what is the best gamut you can get. If you can't get a more reasonable gamut then I think service or replacement is the only option.

Author Steve

INF
Male
#12 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 15:13 
Oh - sorry, I missed the .bcs in the .zip - my mistake.
But, if you really have reset all the projector's internal CMS, etc., it is probably is non-viable now.
(It is really bad...)

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author Omardris
ZRO
#13 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 16:14 
@FreMo
Your HW65ES is unfortunately also affected by panel drift.
The result is a flat gamma curve, shrinking of the color space and often a significant loss of contrast.
I can only go into the basic procedure in such cases here:
The first step is to change the gamut from BT709 to Colorspace 1 to 3 and then to perform a measurement to determine which one is still best suited for BT709. All Sonys have an extended colorspace, which can be used in such cases to reach BT709 again.
Then try to adjust the white point of the color temperature D65 or User Def 3 with the gain controls too well.
Then I make a measurement with LightSpace, let one calculate a 3-D LUT and export it to a Sony gamma curve (ldt file !!), which I then save in the projector with Sony ImageDirector.
Since you have a Lumagen Radiance, you can proceed differently:
Please set the gamma of the HW65 to 2.6 - this is the maximum.
Then make a measurement with LightSpace and let it calculate a 3-D LUT for BT709 with the desired gamma (2.2 - 2.4), which you store in the Radiance.
Peter

Author gordonF
ZRO
#14 | Posted: 1 Nov 2020 17:37 
Before doing any profile with the Sony. make sure the CMS bank in use has colourspace set with AUTO CONVERT off....

Author FreMo
ZRO
Male
#15 | Posted: 3 Nov 2020 21:38 
gordonF:
Before doing any profile with the Sony. make sure the CMS bank in use has colourspace set with AUTO CONVERT off....

Thanks for your help Gordon. Is AUTO CONVERT a setting in the Sony or in the Radiance?

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 help calibrating Sony 65 projector with LightSpace

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