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Author Nepomuk
ZRO
#16 | Posted: 26 Jan 2012 11:17 
a 6.6 feet wide screen is wonderful for indie. Should be possible today.

Author Kaurus
ZRO
#17 | Posted: 26 Jan 2012 21:20 
Hi all,
just to add a little more info on the LED. The projectiondesign FL32 latest version is meant to be a bit brighter than its predecessor and we managed to get 13ft lbts with the original in a 7'6" screen. So the odds are that it might be worth a test with the latest on a 6'6".

Must be noted that the LED Gamut does not quite hit P3. Not a million miles away and its bigger than 709 but if you take the approach Steve mentioned with the 709 start point and Lightspace to your desired target, this could be a solution.
and no lamps!!

Cheers
Peter

Author Nepomuk
ZRO
#18 | Posted: 27 Jan 2012 15:30 
interesting Peter! I am still collecting opinions. rec709 workflow vs printer profil and JVC rs60(X9), Sony vw95, or the new 4k.

since the primaries are cleaner with LED technology, I wonder why it's still so hard to get to wider gamuts cheaper. Even IKEA is selling LED-bulbs now..;). Would be so cool not heaving to worry about the running time!

As if they don't want to sell, I wish I would get prices from projectiondesign, but they take forever to get it together. Much easier to buy car, and you can actually test it...

Author Kaurus
ZRO
#19 | Posted: 29 Jan 2012 11:20 
Hi.
It is technically possible to get the wider gamut LEDs but the cost effectiveness spirals out of control as the LEDS used by projector manufacturers are not necessarily made specifically for that purpose, they just happen to work very well given the brightness they can now acheive and quite comfortably in and around the Rec 709 space.
The red and blue LEDS tend not to be an issue with quite a large % able to emit the spectral range required. The difficulty is the green LED and to get one that spectrally pushes out toward P3 coordinates (as per CIE chart) is a far smaller %.

For example and only for illustration sake, not real numbers;
9 out of 10 red and blue LEDS may hit the mark where as the green may be 1 in 10.

Add to that a manufacturer's need to sell kit to survive, the global demand for this spectral responce pails into insignificance when compared to demand for non colour critical projectors that are thier bread and butter so dont put the time and money needed to develop and test this small niche product.
projectiondesign have been one of the few to expend some time and money on this but again, resources cost money and putting enginnering, test and development resource on to a product that may sell a dozen or so a month globally compared to hundreds or more a month has to be put down the priority chain.

Unfortunately it all comes down to money.

We class oursleves as manufacturer agnostic, so have no allegience to any one projector manufacturer.
We spec what works best for the client, We have had a long relationship with projectiondesign and they have restructurerd over the last 18mnths. This has impacted on communication i have to agree but they are getting there.
If you can give me more info off this list on where you are, what u need etc, i can see if i can help. I can certainly get you numbers, then see if ts possible for you to see a unit somehow.

As for the JVC, Sony's etc, they work for some an not for others and for various reason but as Steve mentiones previously, he has come across the odd calibration issue with DiLA (LCOS) devices compared to DLP.
Thats not to say people don't succesfully use them, you just need to be aware of what you are dealing with before you commit.

Regards
Peter

Author Nepomuk
ZRO
#20 | Posted: 29 Jan 2012 13:38 
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Peter!
Seems they haven't solved the green diode problem, yet, though I read about improvements through letting GaN grow in layers to minimize the tensions in the atomic lattice that till now lead to loss in efficiency over time. So they still use phosphor coating on blue, probably.

Especially artistically, I am still not convinced rec709 should be my color space for grading for cinema. 70-100cd/m² is twice the luminous intensity, and a director will wonder, why its so dark now. Not talking about the loss in gamut.

I found 1 post stating, the rs60, which has a wide gamut, including later models, can be calibrated "reasonably" accurate enough, with a cine-tal davio and hubble, to emulsion profiles and p3.

Comparable numbers of accuracies of probes and viewing devices would give a foundation to a decision.

Author digitalp_admin

Male
#21 | Posted: 30 Jan 2012 17:52 
rs-60? I have worked with them before and unfortunately I do not carry any memorable experiences. They are buggy and have a tendency to drift very quickly.... (Calibration was performed with a HUBBLE)

Cheers
Sundeep

Author Nepomuk
ZRO
#22 | Posted: 30 Jan 2012 18:20 | Edited by: Nepomuk 
with "very quickly", what do you mean Sundeep. Like, during a day? And what bugs you are referring to?

projectiondesign still working on their offer. Probably I have to wave with bills...
If not rs60(x9), I read only about these homecinema jvcs and sonys. The barco phonenumber for Germany doesn't work...What about digitalprojection? Isn't there any decent small wide gamut projector on this planet? ;)

Now I hear the hubble is discontinued old design, not "better" than a display3, and I should use a signal generator and a jeti for calibrating. (weird?)

I'll keep you posted, about my progress.

Thanks for all your help!

Author Steve

INF
Male
#23 | Posted: 30 Jan 2012 23:10 
DILA projectors are about the most unstable I have come across, and do not manage P3,and are also very non-linear in their colour response, and have very poor blacks and far lower brightness than quoted - in my experience. And I have attempted to calibrate a few...

Hubble is not discontinued, and is FAR better than the i1 Display Pro - about 10 times better, but does cost more...

And I don't understand the question about a Jeti and a signal generator - that makes no sense at all. All Hubbles are factory calibrated as are i1 Display Pro's - but both will need recalibration as they age.
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author Sundeep
ZRO
#24 | Posted: 31 Jan 2012 05:39 
Hi Nepomuk

The rs 60s I have tried calibrating for clients drifted in a day's time or 2 depending on usage. The bugs I have encountered with the projector are that it doesn't seem to save and remember settings at times. There is one specific problem we faced where the projector kept clipping a full range signal and we had to keep fiddling with the projector settings to stop it from clipping the signal. Every time the projector was started this was a nuisance for the customer as he had to keep going in to the menu settings and had to set the levels right. It just wouldnt save or remember the earlier settings.

As far as DILa projectors go, P3 is something they can't do. We have 3 customers who have the same RS series and they are quite unhappy with them.

A big contingent of the Projection Design team are at a trade show in Amsterdam at the moment hence the delay. I am sure they will get back to you soon...

Cheers
Sundeep

Author Nepomuk
ZRO
#25 | Posted: 31 Jan 2012 05:54 
Again, thanks for clearing this up. So the hubble is a good deal, since its about 10x as costly.

Yeah, I wouldn't know what use a that generator would have. The cms is generating test colors for the probe and thats it. Maybe he meant for analysing refresh rates, judder, dynamic stuff...

Homecinema people measure, with the filter engaged, with these jvs extremely close p3.

I hope they tell me the cineo32led is on sale. found a price 27k. my dream projector. Otherwise I see myself buy such wild horse and calibrating every day.

Author Nepomuk
ZRO
#26 | Posted: 18 Feb 2012 17:36 
that sounds wild...anyway, just letting you know I could reach projectiondesign - it's going to be the cineo32LED. You will be right.

Author Steve

INF
Male
#27 | Posted: 18 Feb 2012 18:20 
Sounds great - just make sure your screen size is small enough for the LED projector - it's not as bright as the others.

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author Nepomuk
ZRO
#28 | Posted: 19 Feb 2012 05:12 
Yes, I looking forward to a demonstration. I think, its has the ideal brightness for a fine little suite

Author deadvoid
ZRO
#29 | Posted: 23 Feb 2012 10:30 
Hi steve,

Have you work with Klein K-10 before? If you do would you mind sharing us what you do with the probe in terms of the probe internal calibration before profiling a pro Panasonic plasma? I would post the bits regarding Panasonic in the monitoring thread

Thank you

Author Steve

INF
Male
#30 | Posted: 23 Feb 2012 15:49 
We have integrated the K-10 with LightSpace, but it's not a probe we have used a lot.

Does it have internal calibration?
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

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