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3D LUTs for the home enthusiast

 
 
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Author Steve

INF
Male
#61 | Posted: 16 Oct 2012 10:57 
What happens if you fit a Radiance between the PC and TV?
Something that re-clocks the HDMI signal may insert what ever data is required...

You can also alter the HDMI data in the signal stream using the Radiance controls to see if that works.
(The data embedded in the HDMI signal, not the image data)

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author JJ Johnson
ZRO
#62 | Posted: 16 Oct 2012 11:03 
Hi Steve,

Since the mini3 is still under warranty, I'll talk to Lumagen, too, for some insight.

Kind Regards,

JJ

Author JJ Johnson
ZRO
#63 | Posted: 16 Oct 2012 11:11 
Hi Steve,

I put the mini3 between the AccuPel and the Sony. Results are inconclusive, since I may have not properly set up the mini3; but the way I did it, the HDMI signaling from AccuPel to the display was not carried through the mini3 transparently ... i.e. the DRC feature was not selectable on the Sony display with mini3 placed in the HDMI pathway. I reconnected the Accupel directly to the display and DRC was selectable. Again, I'll check with Lumagen today.

Kind Regards,

JJ

Author Steve

INF
Male
#64 | Posted: 16 Oct 2012 14:34 
Hi JJ, thanks for the testing - do keep us informed of progress!

I have good contacts at Lumagen, so shout if you need any help.

Cheers,

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author JJ Johnson
ZRO
#65 | Posted: 16 Oct 2012 18:42 
Hi Guys,

I talked to AccuPel, Lumagen and OPPO and they all gave me the same answer: they do not know. Lumagen wants to help, but they need some data to work with. I would need a contact in Japan to what Sony's HDMI interface is listening for to make their DRC enhanced feature selectable. Any Sony tech support in USA are just paper pushers ... and I've talked to the best of the best in the USA. Oh well.... I'll try my HDMI analyzer one more time; otherwise, I'll poke around HTPC forum threads at AVS. They just might get into this kind of stuff if they play Blu Ray movies from their PCs via cyberlink PowerDVD software.

Kind Regards,

JJ

Author JJ Johnson
ZRO
#66 | Posted: 16 Oct 2012 23:03 
Hi Guys,

End of story: I better understand what Sony is doing with DRC in the 46xbr2. My best hunch is it increases vertical resolution by using something similar to line doubling or quadrupling along with increased frame rates that include image motion interpolation. This increases perceived detail, image depth and smoothes-out fast motion. Because its limit is the display’s native resolution, it’s not selectable for 1080p feeds. DRC is selectable for 1080i, 720p, 480i,p, which I verified.

The AccuPel and OPPO default settings were at 1080i. PCs and Lumagen were sending 1080p content.

So for Pre-Cal Workflow, Sony’s enhanced features can be on, without warning, depending on if incoming source resolution is less than the display's native resolution. It can appear in custom, standard and custom picture pre-sets. Turning off the internal calibration engine for the Sony 46xbr2 is complicated, its color separation is poor and it’s best to use 17pt Display Characterization Cal runs to profile this display.

Kind Regards,

JJ

Author Steve

INF
Male
#67 | Posted: 17 Oct 2012 07:27 
Thanks JJ, that's great feedback!

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author JJ Johnson
ZRO
#68 | Posted: 17 Oct 2012 09:23 
Hi Guys,

So, after I’ve done weeks of Display Profiles, CLUTs and VLUTs ... what's actually downloaded into the LUT processor? ... I assume it’s a data file ... the Display Profile? Then after the data file has been downloaded into the LUT processor, you verify results by running a Quick Profile of the Display that has a calibrated LUT processor? Analyze its level of quality via Quick Profile (Color Sep, Gamma, Gamut), CLUT (shape of 3D-Cube) and VLUT with Reference Images?

If you use diagnostic and modification tools post Profile Run, how do you modify the data file so it can be downloaded again into the LUT processor so the level of Quality can be verified again?

I would suggest you have a Reference Image with various flesh tones (a people picture) in your Cal_Images file ... just to make sure something is not fundamentally wrong with the calibration.

Kind Regards,

JJ

Author JJ Johnson
ZRO
#69 | Posted: 17 Oct 2012 10:56 
Hi Steve,

I have a frame sizing issue between my Alienware M15x PC and Sony 46xbr2. The size of the screen is coming in at 2% under sized ... 2% of the pixels are not being used by the Sony Display ... all around the outer border of the screen. When I adjust the usable picture area on the Sony Display from Full Pixel down to -2, then all the Sony Display pixels are being used. All the pixels in the M15x are being used. I'm using the PC's Display Port and a DP to HDMI adapter to connect the PC to Sony display via HDMI cable.

My Vista PC, the one with the physical HDMI port, does it correctly. All pixels are being used on the Sony Display and the PC.

I've contacted Alienware about this issue. They want to charge me $140US to fix it or buy a year "Software" warranty for dbl that price. They have not convinced me they even understand the problem.

Any ideas?

Kind Regards,

JJ

Author JJ Johnson
ZRO
#70 | Posted: 17 Oct 2012 16:26 
Hi Guys,

Here's a high level description (lol) of a workflow used for a Profile run of a mini3 connected to a Display. The Profile run was done to determine the level of quality of the LUT calibration of the 5x5x5 mini3 external LUT processor connected to the Sony display. This is a Worst Case Scenario workflow ... which is defined by having a display with very poor image processing. Step 1 selects the Just Good Enough LUT size of the Profile run. This step is dependent on how good the Display's (w.o. mini3 connected) image processing capabilities are. Step 2 describes the steps used to Judge the quality of the display based on Profile run whose LUT size was determined in Step1. There are many undercurrents going on here (like the size of the mini3 LUT), so it's a simplistic view (lol). To clarify: this WCS workflow reflects the extra steps needed because the display's poor quality. A display with good image processing capabilities uses the Short Run (a) as its Final Profile Run in Step 2. A poor display uses the Long Run (b), with varying LUT sizes, as its Final Profile Run in Step 2. We assume both the mini3 and Chromapure cal software (used to calibrate the min3/display combo) are of good quality and do not influence any additional steps in the WCS workflow. You could use calman instead of Chromapure, as well, with the same good quality assumption.

Quality LUT Workflow:

1. Perform 2 Quick Profile runs of the Display by itself, without the mini3 connected. Your objective in this step is to select a "Just Good Enough" LUT size (either the small Quick Profile size or one of the larger 10-17pt sizes) to use for the Final Profile Run in Step 2. You'll determine the LUT size by judging the quality of the Display's Color Separation, Gamut and Gamma from the Quick Profile run, independent of the mini3. Again, the mini3 is not connected for these 2 Quick Profile runs:

a. The first run: perform a Quick Profile run with the display's internal calibration engine turned off; the Pre-Calibration Workflow is: get the display in Full Default conditions (i.e., all enhancement features turn off, color temp closest to D65, no changes to other monitor controls ... keep the unit show room bright). This will give your display the best chance for showing excellent color separation. We'll also determine if you have a very poor quality display by the color separation results here;

b. The second run: perform a Quick Profile run with the display's internal calibration engine turned on; follow Light Space's Pre-Cal Workflow;

c. If the Display color separation fails both runs, when the display's internal calibration engine is off and on, then you'll use 17pt profile size, which takes 4 hours to run. Go to Step 2 (b), Long Profile Run;

d. Else, if the first run passes and the second run fails, pick a Profile size between 10pt – 17pt, which takes between 1 to 4 hours to run. Deciding this requires a more experienced base than I have, so for newbies, just pick the 17pt size, which takes 4 hrs. Go to Step 2 (b), Long Profile Run;

e. Else, if the Quick Profile color separation, gamma and gamut passes both runs, cal engine off and on, then pick the Quick Profile LUT size (Quick Profile has only 1 LUT size), which takes 10 minutes to run, for Profiling the mini3/Display combo. Go to Step 2 (a), Short Profile Run.

2. Once you've completed Step 1, connect the mini3 to the display, calibrate the mini3/display combo using Chromapure (or Calman) and determine the level of quality of the LUT calibration with Light Space by doing the following based on which Profile LUT size you picked in Step 1:

a. Short Profile Run: Quick Profile Size ... i.e. Small Size Profile LUT:

i. Last Profile Run: Perform a Quick Profile run on the mini3/display combo. While still in the Quick Profile tool, Judge the quality of the Color Separation, Gamma and Gamut. You can't see color separation if you exit the tool.

ii. Create a Calibration, rec709, LUT and Judge the quality of the CLUT image of your calibrated display, in terms of shape and any distortions ... (tbd, Steve, help pls.).

iii. Create a Verification LUT and Judge the quality of the VLUT by looking at Reference Images through the VLUT of your calibrated display.

iv. Based on your experience base, you can now determine the level of quality, based on the 3 previous judgments, of the LUT Calibration of the mini3/display combo. The actual calibration was done by Chromapure with the mini3 connected to the Sony display. Light Space is only used to determine the level of quality of the LUT calibration.

b. Long Profile Run: 10 to 17pt Size Profile Run ... i.e. Large Size Profile LUT:

i. Based on the size of the profile you selected (10-17pt); perform a Display Characterization Profile run of the mini3/display combo. Remember the data file name you assigned for the next step.

ii. Create a Calibration LUT, rec709, Image by selecting the DC Profile data file name in the destination box. It's the file name you were asked to remember in the previous step. Now, remember the CLUT file name you just assigned in this step for the next step.

iii. Last Profile Run: Use Quick Profile (yes, another Quick Profile run, 10 minutes, is needed) and perform a Re-Quick Profile by clicking the Active LUT box and selecting the CLUT name you were to remember. This run should take 10 minutes;

iv. Judge the quality of the Color Separation, Gamma and Gamut of the Re-Quick Profile run.

v. Create a Calibration, rec709, LUT from the Re-Quick Profile and Judge the quality of the CLUT image of your calibrated display, in terms of shape and distortions ... (tbd, Steve, help pls.).

vi. Create a Verification LUT and Judge the quality of the VLUT by looking at Reference Images through the VLUT of your calibrated display.

vii. Based on your experience base, you can now determine the level of quality, based on the 3 previous judgments, of the LUT calibration of the mini3/display combo. The actual calibration was done by Chromapure with the mini3 connected to the Sony display. Light Space is only used to determine the level of quality of the LUT calibration.

Bottom Line:

To determine the Level of Quality of a LUT Calibration Run, one needs to determine the Image Processing Capabilities of the mini3/Display combo. You start by selecting the size of the LUT that is Just Good Enough to be used in the Profile run. This depends on the quality of the imaging processing capabilities of the display by itself (not connected to the mini3). Since you may not know the quality of your display and you want the fastest run with Just Good Enough accuracy, follow Step 1 of the LUT Quality Workflow to determine this. Step 1 results in identifying the Just Good Enough LUT size for the Profile run. You'll need a minimum of 3 short Profile runs for a high quality display. A minimum of 4 Profile runs, some which are 1 to 4 hour(s) long, for a poor quality display. Most displays should use the Short Run, but you won't know unless you follow this workflow. You'll note that I marked where the Last Profile Run is in the workflow process for both the Short (a) and Long (b) profile runs. If you used the Short, 10 minute, Profile Run as the Last Profile run, it took you 3 Profile runs, a CLUT and a VLUT (a hidden Quick Profile Run is needed here) to Judge the quality of the calibration run. If you used the Long Profile Run, it took 4 Profile runs, some which are 1 to 4 hour(s) long, a CLUT and VLUT (a hidden Quick Profile Run is needed here) to Judge the level of quality of the mini3/display combo LUT calibration run. The Last Profile Run is the actual JGE Profile Run of the mini3/display combo. It should give you the fastest run time with a high enough confidence that the accuracy is very good. This Profile run assumes an already calibrated mini3 was connected to the display. The mini3/display was calibrated in my tests with Chromapure, but you could use Calman as well.

Kind Regards, JJ

Author Steve

INF
Male
#71 | Posted: 17 Oct 2012 16:40 
Hi JJ,

Lots of info there! Great

The final data to be downloaded to the processor (eeColor for example) is the final LUt as generated in LightSpace, it the format required for the processor. Lumagen format to come shortly...

Running a Quick Profile with the LUT in the processor is exactly the same as running the Quick Profile with the LUT in the 'Active LUT' option within LightSpace - unless the LUT processor causes issues when the LUT is loaded, as with the HDlink Pro!

For flesh tone images I would suggest using nay of you preference, or the Kodak Marcy converted to Rec709 space (it is log normally).

As for the sizing issue you have seen with the Sony TV, I have no idea... Could it be the Display Port to HDMI converter?

The full workflow description I have to sit down and read through fully - and then comment if needed.
But a quick read through looks good!

Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author JJ Johnson
ZRO
#72 | Posted: 22 Oct 2012 11:53 
Hi Guys,

Just some thoughts what steps we can take to make LS work for the Home Theater (HT) market. This is based on both discussions with others and upon the data collected from LS Profile runs since 09/13/2012.

The challenge here it to begin by accepting the worst case scenario that Professional LS HT Calibrators will run into mediocre displays and projectors often in the HT market, unless the data supports otherwise. Assume, for this exercise, the quality of HT displays is much lower than the “Studio Quality” displays with which Light Space is commonly used for. Have beta testers test a pre-determine list of displays and projectors which are likely to be LUT calibrated … say this list comes from customers who are willing to pay for their displays and/or projectors to be LUT calibrated and use this list as a starting point to define the scope of the HT market. This list can change, and will change, over time. From beta testing the displays and projectors on this list, determine the JGE (Just Good Enough) 3D cube LUT size to be used for the HT Quick Profile run. We may need nothing more than what we have now or changes need to be made. We won’t know until the data can back it up.

It’s entirely possible, or not, we’ll need a new series of “LS HT Quick Profile” Workflows and possibly real time performance tweaks in LS HT Software and Hardware (external LUT processor and/or PC that LS runs on) Package to address the HT market. Again, we need the data to support the HT requirements. The goal, if I may be so bold to suggest it, is for LS’s HT Quick Profile to run in 30 minutes or less to correct for color separation, gamma and gamut in 95% of the displays and projectors that the LS HT Professional Calibrator will likely encounter. Larger 3D cube LUT sizes would address the remaining 5% … these percentage numbers can be changed, with data to support. Remember, this is just a starting point.

I’ve collected some data on Sony 46 xbr2 display and Epson 6010 Projector. I’ll have to re-run again to an agreed upon “beta” workflow … i.e. we would have to agree on the “beta” workflow to use to do this testing. The challenge is for everyone to help establish the minimum JGE LUT 3D cube size for the HT Quick Profile Software and Hardware Package. Do this by beta testing a list of displays and projectors the LS Professional Calibrator will “likely (95% of the time) encounter in the HT market” and share results for discussion, analysis and modification on this forum.

I’ll be off radar for the next 2 weeks. See you when I get back.

Kind Regards,

JJ

Author Steve

INF
Male
#73 | Posted: 22 Oct 2012 12:00 
Hi JJ,

Thanks for that post.
We will have Lumagen integration shortly so can follow-up with that when you're back and operational.

Cheers,

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

Author Gabriele Turchi
ZRO
#74 | Posted: 22 Oct 2012 13:59 
guys , how would you load the LUT on a Home theater setup ?

thanks
g

Author Steve

INF
Male
#75 | Posted: 22 Oct 2012 14:03 
Using a HDMI LUT Box, such as eeColor or Lumagen Mini.
The eeColor box is working already, the Lumagen we are in the process of integrating.

Steve
Steve Shaw
Mob Boss at Light Illusion

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